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TCT licensing to be replaced by TPQI skills testing

Discussion in 'Qualifications & Courses' started by JimB, 26 Sep 2016.

  1. ttompatz

    ttompatz Just another teacher

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    And we all know that having pedagogical training is always a bad thing.

    Having passed the bar doesn't make you a good lawyer but by not passing then it is a safe bet that the lawyer doesn't know what he is doing even if he is entertaining.

    Just because you have a BA and can engage with your kids don't mean you know shit about teaching anything.
    Just because they are entertained doesn't mean they will actually learn.

    Attitudes like that are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

    The new process may or may not get you a "gold card" since they (licenses) are regulated by law and the law hasn't been changed but the process may allow the TCT to better deal with unlicensed teachers in a better fashion than the dog & pony show that is the current waiver process.

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  2. Mr. Chips

    Mr. Chips Active Member

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    Very interesting and professional choice of vocabulary from a "Gold Card" english teacher.
    My point was not to say that qualified teachers are not more qualified (than a B.A. holder). My point was that nothing matters unless you can actually teach. I do not put B.A. holders in the same category as the licensed teachers.
    Which teacher is the true professional teacher goes without saying.
    There are allot of children out there who cannot speak English and need to be taught.
    If the country was filled with licensed NES teachers than we wouldn't be having this interaction.
    As it stands now we are where we are. I didn't create the circumstances.
    I would by no means even think for a second that any qualified teacher on this site is not on a tier above me or any other B.A. holding waiver utilizing teacher.
     
  3. ttompatz

    ttompatz Just another teacher

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    Forgive me. I did not mean for my previous post to seem like an ad hominem attack. Please allow me to address the issues and not the issuer.

    "Although I only have a B.A. degree, I strongly feel that it is suffice to teach in Gov't school levels. "
    I honestly believe this is a big reason for the poor quality of English education in Thailand and most of SE Asia for that matter.

    While a BA holder is better than some white face off the street the lack of pedagogical training results in very inconsistent learning environments at great cost, both in wasted budgets and wasted human resource value. Justifying this (not that you did) by complaining about corruption and waste in the school administration (commonly done) is just a scapegoat.

    I've had many discussions on this where I have pointed out that, (as an example) having passed the bar does not mean that you are a good lawyer.
    Passing the bar may not necessarily make you a good lawyer (experience does that) but it does make you a lawyer and certainly a few steps above a lay person. Getting some pedagogical training won't necessarily make you a great teacher but it does make you a better teacher and removes the excuse of not being trained.

    Proper licensing for private and college...but don't get ridiculous when asking B.A. degree holders to qualify (and jump thru hoops) to teach in a gov't school. Call it like it is.
    I do call it like it is. The education act requires teachers to be licensed and a system is in place for licensing of all teachers.
    The issues usually arise from older (usually Thai) teachers who were grandfathered into their licenses rather than by the younger teachers who actually have pedagogical training (usually Thai licensed teachers) or by "English teachers" who are unlicensed. The TCT has adopted the dog & pony show that is the current waiver system to allow those unlicensed BA holders into a classroom. If, by using BA holders, the current state is what it is then something needs to change.

    At the end of the day nothing will change. I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
    I too hope that you are wrong regarding "no changes".

    Very interesting and professional choice of vocabulary from a "Gold Card" english teacher.

    Gold card is in reference to the actual color of the card not in reference to some "gold standard".
    As to my vocabulary, if you prefer a more academic level of vocabulary then please attend one of my presentations at one of the regional or international conferences that I often speak at. You are also free to read my papers in the related, peer reviewed journals or conference proceedings.

    My point was not to say that qualified teachers are not more qualified (than a B.A. holder). My point was that nothing matters unless you can actually teach. I do not put B.A. holders in the same category as the licensed teachers.
    The difference between a BA holder and a qualified teacher is one more year of pedagogical training (the PGCE or DipT / Dip.Ed). There is nothing stopping a BA holder from continuing their own professional development and actually getting qualified to do what you claim that you do.

    Which teacher is the true professional teacher goes without saying.

    Ah, but it shouldn't. If you are teaching then you should be as professional as you can be.
    Your argument seems to be a matter of just "Getting by" or doing the bare minimum to stay working rather than actually taking pride in yourself, your current profession and the work that you do and continuing to add to your own professional development.

    There are allot of children out there who cannot speak English and need to be taught.
    If the country was filled with licensed NES teachers than we wouldn't be having this interaction.

    So you will complete your DipT and get your license when?

    As it stands now we are where we are. I didn't create the circumstances.
    But by taking a professional approach to the issue you can help create the solution rather than continuing to be part of the problem.

    I would by no means even think for a second that any qualified teacher on this site is not on a tier above me or any other B.A. holding waiver utilizing teacher.
    This is not the deceased AF.
    There is no reason any teacher here with their BA can't improve themselves for the betterment of themselves and their students.

    As a matter of fact, on-going professional development is a requirement for those "gold card" licensed teachers. AFTER they have jumped through the hoops to get their gold card they are then required to show at license renewal time that they have undertaken at least 20 hours of professional development each year for the 5 years they were licensed. (Starting next year that will go up to 40 hours per year of Pro-D.)

    It is also of note that the MOE puts on at least one conference each year (Educa) for teachers to get that 20 hours. The general workshops are free. The international workshop was 1100 baht this year but included lunch and coffee breaks on day one as well as lunches on days 2 and 3. The free workshop does not give free lunch.

    There is also no shortage of conferences put on each year in Thailand by various organizations for anyone wishing to attend. These usually have a cost that varies from b1000 to b10k but also tend to feature some of the best professionals in our fields (Stephen Krashen, Paul Matsuda, Willy Renandya, Paul Nation, David Nunan to name but a few).

    Realistically, there are two levels of teachers and two levels of students.
    The race to the bottom by getting by with as little as you can to keep legal needs to change.
    Blaming the students or the school is just passing the buck. One teacher in one classroom can make a difference.
     
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  4. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Well-Known Member

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    Sirchai, this issue inspired you to spit out some poetry.

    My view of all this: if it's not broken, don't fix it.

    Many good teachers have made an effort to professionalize themselves, but now it seems that the game is about to change. Don't be surprised if the good idea fairy strikes again in about eighteen months to hoick everyone in another seemingly random direction--probably back to the TCT.

    This fixation about certification has puzzled me a lot. The ship is on fire and the rudder has fallen off: wait, do the hired hands have a license to be on the ship fighting the fire? You know, the ones with burning eyes and smoke inhalation?

    In China they don't care if you have a license. They care if you can pronounce English correctly. They want you to have a TEFL, a real BA, some experience, and that is generally good enough. Their economy has been booming for a long time, and their kids are learning and achieving a lot. Hiring is generally the responsibility of the individual school. No license required.

    It is true that many provinces have their own programs which create teachers, but these are just Sino-fied (a neologism) TEFL programs for native speakers (and others) with a BA. China trusts the TEFL.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
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  5. Wangsuda

    Wangsuda Nonentity Staff Member

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    ^I gotta go to China. I, personally, am tired of Thailand's games.
     
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  6. Mr. Chips

    Mr. Chips Active Member

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    Tompatz:
    The bit about the lawyer....obviously a poor analogy. Take it easy. I got it the first time.

    Not to single me out...but you repeatedly go on to quote me.
    But that's OK.
    My problem is my B.A. is Speech and Communicaions (which is more than half the battle here). Can't use it for these purposes. Investment Banking background. Not teaching.

    Really love teaching. Really love Thailand. Really love my students.
    However, I 'm not going back to school at 56 years old.
    On-line...who knows?

    How many licensed NES teachers work for 30-38k a month after getting their masters?
    I will not win this disagreement. Never expected it. I was more like thinking out loud on this particular thread. Hit a nerve.
    The shocking part was your attack. It was an attack regardless of how you try to dress it up.
    Thanks David for the one above.
    Sorry Wasuda. No more.
     
  7. sirchai

    sirchai Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your post. I’ve done quite a lot, of course, some of them were free and I think that I’ve learned quite a lot by doing something that can/will/ does make me to a better teacher.


    Your statement if it’s not broken, don’t fix it seems to describe me best. I’ve done setups of various PC and notebook programs, tried out new software and sometimes destroyed my functioning system, just to start over again.

    What I was trying to say was that I’m currently employed as a trainer for the first time in my life in Thailand. Even when a letter from my university (you know the Diploma thingy in T- Ed) would have been enough to receive a provisional license, good for two more years to teach from TCT.

    A letter of enrollment would have given me another two years on a provisional license, but my Immigration friend gave me a contract of a friend and told me to come back with a similar written one. Everything went well and I thought I’d “graduate” this year, but the news is really bad. There’s no graduation before the May 2017, even considering that I’ve signed up in beginning of March 2016 and they told me that it would take up to 10- 12 months to graduate.

    At school, I’m doing the job for two teachers because they don’t want to spend too much money for another teacher. But that was already promised two years ago but all that happened was a steady increasing teaching load. No pay raise since I signed my first contract is just another story.

    But at least, I do have a real degree in social pedagogy, plus a TESOL, TOEIC, and many other qualifications. I’m aware that there’s a well -known school where two 21-year-old, who neither have a degree, nor any teaching experience are employed as teachers.

    They already had a higher starting salary and none of them seems to think about getting a degree/ or doing something productive in education to be a better teacher. They're trainers since they started there three years ago. No intention to do something. I'm in no way jealous, please don't get me wrong.

    I doubt that such a diploma makes anybody to a better teacher, but they made a great deal obviously with the right people, but don’t care about their customers. Their support really sucks.

    I’ve read parts of assignments where I couldn’t understand anything plus a lot of wrong grammar and sentence structure. Let’s take a guy from an African country as an example, as his writing is similar to a 5th grader in an EP in Thailand

    This guy will soon have his full license and might have better chances finding employment than an NES with a BA and a lot of experience? Sorry, mate, but there’s something brutally wrong.

    Excuse me, for being a little bit off topic. Just a few thoughts from my side.


    Is it possible that the ship's got the wrong Captain and the holes are too big for the soon dying water pumps?

    Have a great end of the week. Cheers-
     
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  8. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Well-Known Member

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    Thailand: roll with the punches. America: roll with the punches. China: roll with the punches. Laos: roll with punches.
    Great Britain: roll with the punches. Antarctica: roll with punches. Afghanistan: roll with the punches.
    The suckfest is not going to stop, no matter where you go. You can't change it, but you can change your reaction.

    He said... (burp).

    296c547b4501e1995c24a13252030f52.jpg
     
  9. Wangsuda

    Wangsuda Nonentity Staff Member

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    I
    It's all good and I'm really enjoying the discussion. I'm one of those crazy teachers who has more degrees and certificates and then what's good for him. But over the last couple of decades I have gotten tired. I do agree that the system needs changing, but my idea of changing the system is actually modeled on the northern Europe system. Nowadays, children are not allowed to be children. They're up at dawn they're in school all day there in tutoring houses all night. They never have time to be kids we are creating a society filled with crazy people! We need to cut down on the classroom time. We need to cut down on the homework. We need to cut down on boring teacher talking. And we need to increase Student Activity that's fun! Oh well, what do I know? I'm just counting the days until retirement.
     
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  10. sirchai

    sirchai Well-Known Member

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    An American youngster I wanted to have at my former school ( by letting all the other resumes go down the drain) couldn't get the job because I resigned basically overnight online.

    But I felt that I had to look for another job for him and he's lucky and a good school in the city, the first school I worked at, hired him making 36 K as a starting salary.

    I was, even so, kind to pick him up at the bus station at 5 am, took him home, my wife made breakfast for us and when I was asking him where his CV was he denied and didn't even carry his passport.

    Would anybody drive from Bangkok to Sisaket to a school interview with demo lesson without having anything to show?

    Still enough time for the interview, I had all his stuff, including resume and passport pages on my computer. Did he have a lesson plan or a lesson planned? Of course not. I wasn't even shocked and don't know why. Okay, that was K the way he was.....

    So I took one of mine, changed the name and date, told him with what to start, the right icebreaker, game and to walk around in class not only teaching to the first row.

    Then I printed out 6 sets of "his resume" stapled the shit together while K was still enjoying his breakfast. ( Must have been really good, wifey is a great cook..) lol

    I finally dropped him off at the school and wished him good luck. Two hours later a text message that he had the job.

    A guy without any experience became a teacher in a well known EP programme. He struggled with life in Isaan, hated the two 21- year old Scottish kids who're also teachers at this school and tried to make a lot of fun of him.

    He couldn't stand the Filipinos who lived in the same house and there's no way to teach him how to ride a bike. Maybe he'd left the nest way too early and couldn't handle certain things like a money hungry gf, etc....

    I've received a couple of e-mails and he doesn't seem to be really happy and I'm sure that he a sort of regret it that he threw all away.

    The way I see it, he'd be more than happy to have such a job in Thailand. But the train left the station for him.

    Please read a little bit more about China, a lot of people couldn't stay there longer than a week.

    I might be wrong and other members on this forum seem to be very happy there. But I'm neither a native speaker and being 56 years old, even when you look much younger, doesn't really help me to apply for a position,.

    I've signed up at several websites and had some good offers, but only if i can take my family with me.

    It would be odd for me to send money to my family in Thailand. But if you're single, why not?

    Niehauu Maa. - Cheers-

    Sorry for being so off, but I thought you should know a true story.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
  11. Hey_ewe

    Hey_ewe Well-Known Member

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    What I find frustrating is the continual shifting of goalposts. I completed the DipEd course a few months ago and what a surprise, they've shifted again, or are at least planning on it. They need to have one plan and stick to it for more than 1 year, nobody can keep up.

    I am hoping I can get my diploma and subsequent full licence, before my next waiver expires and before they reinvent the wheel once again. I have a B.Sc. a Tefl and I am on my third waiver, which I was told would be my last. At the moment it is easier for teachers I know who have no degree or TEFL to obtain a visa and work permit. How can that be right?

    I used to listen, with some frustration, to teachers saying “Why bother? the rules will just change next year.” It would seem they were right all along. I could easily move over to a marriage visa and ‘trainer’ work permit. In fact this is what I plan to do if the rug is pulled from under me again.

    There are many Filipino teachers who have a ‘degree’ in education, however it's important to note that a degree from the Philippines, is not the equivalent to a UK/US degree, it's closer to ‘A' level standard. I have met a few good Filipino teachers but they have been few and far between.

    The recent diploma I took was in my opinion, the equivalent of UK GCSE level. I had several fellow students from the Philippines asking me on facebook, if they could have a look at my project work because the work was too hard for them. If you read some of the essays that were submitted publicly (despite clear instructions not to do so) then you would see the required standard of work. Many were clearly 'google>copy>paste’ You could even see the different fonts and sizes from the source websites..embarrassing.
     
  12. ttompatz

    ttompatz Just another teacher

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    The point is that whatever they do, with your Dip.Ed you will be able to get a full license and don't have to worry about the shifting goalposts for those without an education qualification. Even if you have to wait until next May for the convocation you should be able to obtain the certificate of academic achievement and transcript of academic record that shows the course complete and that your credential will be awarded.

    Additional good news for you, regardless of how you rate the quality of your course is that your Philippine credential, under AEC rules for mutual recognition of qualifications within the ASEAN framework for trade in services, has to be taken at face value.

    .
     
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  13. Wangsuda

    Wangsuda Nonentity Staff Member

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    You and me both! And the goalposts are not only shifting at the top, they shift all the way down too. It's amazing on how some schools change the requirements on a regular basis. And what really chaps my hide is how the schools never seems to mention that the rules have changed. They just get angry when you don't abide by what you don't know. Same all the way to the top.

    Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to derail the thread.
     
  14. Mr. Chips

    Mr. Chips Active Member

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    Remember that big Teachers Day announcement a couple of years ago. Nada.

    We keep hearing of this and that.
    They create a wait and see environment, and everything freezes. Fugao a go-go or whatever the name is.
    Who wouldn't be afraid to get involved, and then half-way through it's no longer accepted?
     
  15. Internationalteacher

    Internationalteacher AKA phuketbound

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    Hi, I was just reading this thread and had a few extra thoughts to throw in. Most countries do not have to go through the whole license and testing process like Thailand does. Of course they are getting more strict now in China and even moreso in Korea to get a work visa. China is very much booming and you could easily get a job here with a BA and some experience. There are university jobs, private, public and International school jobs (BEd/PGCE required). China is good because the cost of living isn't overly high unless you are living in Beijing or Shanghai. Even then, you learn how to live to save money.

    @Wangsuda: Children are pushed very hard here in China to learn English. Just recently Beijing has started to hire NES to go into the public system. Based on my three years in Korea and almost three years in China, children are not allowed to be children much. They go to school to learn even after normal school hours and their parents are highly involved with their progress.

    @Tompatz: I agree that you can be a great teacher even with just a BA. You can learn your craft with experience and taking extra qualifications. Some people are natural leaders as well. In my one year B.Ed. I learned more during the practicum part where I was placed in two different schools than I did during the theory part of the course.

    In regards to working in Thailand and the hoops you have to go through, I find it ridiculous actually. I have been wanting to go to teach in Thailand for as long as I can remember, but I am not going to teach for 30,000 baht. I feel like I deserve more than that. I don't understand why salaries haven't been raised in Thailand and even in places like Korea where the cost of living has risen, yet the starting salaries remain the same in private and public education.

    Sorry if this is off topic, but I was responding to some of what people have posted.
    Cheers!
     
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