Discussion in 'General News from other countries' started by sirchai, 26 Nov 2016.
^I've come to the conclusion that you need to get out more ...much more.
Plenty of guys from the UK who, understandably, think they are 'too good' for these jobs. There will always be a million people who are workshy but most people want to work if the reward is good enough.
I bring you back to the point I made about a closed capitalist economy. The answer is not to allow a mass influx of people from outside the system but to allow wages to rise to a 'natural' level, where workers in the system are prepared to work for those wages.
What the UK did, much earlier than other EU countries, was to make low paid UK jobs available to millions of workers from low income eastern European countries. This oversupply of cheap labour not only depressed wages but put a huge strain on local public services.
I reiterate (I shouldn't have to really but for the black & white thinking people) that controlled immigration is a good thing. Having uncontrolled immigration, that is an open door to low income countries, is not.
Not arguing with the theory but in reality I'm struggling to think of a single closed capitalist economy. For one capitalists are by their very nature drawn to opportunities to make money and national borders mean little to them and for another does such a thing as a closed capitalist economy exist in today's world of multinational companies?
Some would argue that we need doctors and engineers probably because we did and still do in the UK at least.
Immigration I agree should be controlled and the crazy situation in Europe has been fuelled by a weak EU policy (Ms Mekel's assertion that Germany would take all was the pinnacle of stupidity). The boats may stop coming if the process of sending them home was sped up. Perhaps it would be too cruel to simply stop giving assistance to ship wrecks but charging the exporting country with the cost of said rescue seems entirely fair. Combine this cost with repatriation costs and the exporting countries may do something to quell the flow. Perhaps even stricter laws on eligibility to welfare on new arrivals, but can't see this being a deterrent.
But I am troubled at the root cause. The unequal distribution of wealth. Take the UK for example. The wealth and standard of living it has was built on The Empire. Don't get me started on the burden of debt issue or the tobacco, oil, or consumer goods industries. If there was no such disgusting inequalities then the immigration tidal wave would not be as it is. More can be done to equal this gap
Why do people want to move, money, safety, joining family, the reasons are many but stopping immigration is like putting a cork in a already fizzing bottle. The issues remain and will explode at some point or another. Faced with no other choice what other options are open to would be immigrants?
As an immigrant myself in Thailand I have welcomed the opportunity to work and contribute to the Thai economy whilst also enjoying the style of living available in this country so I can not criticise those wanting to do the same. Think about it not really that different.
My original point was that immigrants are now in Germany and have contributed to the economy. Those already there should, as a consequence of their contribution, be treated to normal levels of welfare assistance. Further immigration needs to be controlled but simply closing the borders is not going to work, it has gone way beyond the simplistic "shut the doors, close the gates, build the walls" argument.
As for allowing the wage prices to increase Gan, you know as well as any what would happen if this was allowed to happen in todays world of a global market place.
Sirchai that has pretty much nothing to do with the argument and borders on bizarre
It actually does help to explain why so many Turkish and Italian workers were needed. Most (many? German) men died in the war.
I was referring to the Nazi comment
Thought about it: it's not the same at all. Presumably, you had safe passage to a Thai airport and were passed through immigration with no visa hassles. You weren't shunted off to a camp to await an uncertain future, but used your resources to set yourself up in a situation that you found acceptable, if not totally desirable. You play by rules that were set up to advantage your passport and teach a language that the government wants taught to all students. So, not really the same as a storm-tossed economic or political refugee from Ghana, Syria some other troubled backwater.
Think about it some more,
The immigrants to Thailand have, I believe, visa hassles
Immigrants to Thailand although contributing to society have limited access to welfare services although those services are, in part, financed by aforementioned contributions.
I stay here because I prefer the life I have and am able to lead more than in my home country.
Like I said there are similarities
But I can see your point on immigrants from War torn areas and would add that the more wealthy countries have a burden of responsibility to those countries.
I wasn't generalizing to include Burmese, etc...just looking at your example in light of the thinking you request your readers do. You stay in Thailand out of preference; immigrants who are refugees are desperately seeking normalized lives. The main similarity, as I see it, is that you and the huge mass of economic/political immigrant-wannabees both had to travel to achieve your desired destination. What happened when you and they crossed the respective borders is the difference between preference and desperation.
<snip>My original point was that immigrants are now in Germany and have contributed to the economy.<snip>
Are you talking about Turkish people who live there for generations or the people it's all about?
None of the refugees have contributed anything to the German economy. The opposite might be the truth.
Here's something that might be of interest for you. A woman who started her job with full enthusiasm.
First, many of them are extremely demanding. They come to me and demand that I immediately give them an apartment and a fancy car and most also want me to procure them a really good job, and I am supposed to say yes. I’m sitting there and they are indeed in immediate need. And, if I reject them and instead try to explain to them that these demands are not immediately possible to fulfill, then they are often noisy and sometimes very aggressive. An Afghan has only recently threatened that he would kill himself. And a few Syrians and a group of Afghans have declared that they will go on hunger strike until I help them to move to another place.
And I no longer take the train to work and back – because recently a colleague was followed by some of the young men to the metro station and even molested in the train.
I can’t take it anymore” – German Refugee Aid Worker
"I can't take it anymore" - German Refugee Aid Worker - The Geller Report
I'll wade in.
What Sirchai talked about here is very telling and important. Right after heavy bombings during WW II, Germans were out there cleaning up and making things decent. It tells you something about their national character.
On the other hand, you have refugees from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Syria, etc. who leave tons of garbage everywhere they go. You may think it too nice of a point to make, but look at those camps and those landing sites that the refugees arrive at--trash, violence, filth. Where many of them live will also turn into a place no decent person would want to call home.
What should happen is that a massive effort should be made to help the refugees, but they should not be in Germany illegally. Immigration should be strictly controlled, and immigrants should have to adopt German ways--and that includes being civilized and orderly. I think all illegal refugees should be moved out of Europe immediately.
I wish that the Germans had enough guts to eject every single illegal refugee from their country. The dangers of radical Islam are not over-stated. Cultural damage is also an important issue. But most importantly: I have no doubt that a horrific catastrophe is coming for Germany or France, and that event will have been enabled by the namby-pamby, blind stupidity of the bleeding-heart liberals. With one hand a country cannot bomb and kill part of a population, pretending that it did not happen, and with the other send cartoon condolence teddy-bears to victims of shootings in Paris. It is all mentally sick.
First, stop taking part in the violence. That is, stop using terror and bombing people all of the time, with drones, with bombers, etc. Have you ever been in a shooting or a bombing? For Germany and France, etc. the chickens are coming home to roost. Do you see Aleppo? Now imagine Paris the same way, or worse. What can come will make 9-11 look like a children's tea party on a sunny day.
Germany has been a nice place to live, spectacular in fact. I don't want to see it disappear.
Multi-kulti does not work.
This just in: Chicken Little announces sky shards on the way!
Thanks for the great post. Please read what the woman who's so happy to be able to help people has experienced. ( I can't take it anymore)
I remember when they moved 950 refugees to a little village with only 150 Germans. Insanity pure.
And it's not a secret that thousands of sleepers could come in as well. Many of them will follow the Jihad's path and things will become more difficult for all involved. Merkel was wrong from the very start.
All of them should go through a very tough procedure to make sure that they're who they claim to be.
A lot of people who live near places with a lot of refugees fear for their lives, or getting raped and prefer to stay at home in the evening.
It's different when reading the news to being directly involved. One of my uncles, now retired spends his free time to bring sick people to hospitals, does whatever comes up to help the refugees only 100 meters away from his house and other services for them.
But he's so burned out now that he might stop soon. People change their minds when those people they're trying to help are throwing a stone thru their window after some whiskey.......
And the Multi kulti doesn't work in any other European country. A Dutch politician had to pay this sentence with his life and was killed only one week later after he pointed that out.
But that was a few years ago, before the big move.
I agree. No buts.
I would like posters to consider what is to be done then.
If most, and I am within that group, see that uncontrolled immigration is not working what can industrialised countries do? Some have jumped on the negatives faced by the destination countries with little or no offer of solutions to the problem, what do you suggest is to be done?
Refugees as SageAdvice says are looking to normalise lives, running from war, certain death, torture. Then on the other hand countries which have made billions out of the sales of arms, overseas factories, and consumer goods shrill about the oncoming armageddon. There is a disconnect between the refusal to accept that major changes need to be taken and the comfortable lives enjoyed in the west.
Capitalism has not worked for the globe. The inequalities are huge and have now lead to feelings of anger, war and terrorism (with war and terrorism not necessarily mutually exclusive nor is a single universal definition of either held)
In summary, I believe:
Immigration must be controlled, the impact of those immigrating and those in the host nation must be considered equally
Immigrants must be given a safe haven when faced with death, war, rape.
Industrialised countries must do more.
What is do more? I have ideas but please let's stop (not necessarily talking about posters on this forum) the surprise at the current situation. It has been created by the 'west' and now the west must do something about it.
What must be done?
a. Continue current programs to settle the immigrants in widely dispersed communities to avoid ghettos; government provides incentives to improve linguistic and cultural accommodation and eventual assimilation.
b. Shoot all refugees on sight the exact second they penetrate the borders to the Lands of Milk and Honey; those that survive will be shot again.
c. Admit colonial guilt for the current mess...and keep shooting.
d. Demonize the wretched of the earth until assimilation is impossible...then shoot.
Separate names with a comma.