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Another Grammar Question

Discussion in 'Classroom' started by DavidUSA, 16 Oct 2016.

  1. SundayJam

    SundayJam Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, David. I was too abrupt and baseless in my answer. My usual explanation for my students when I don't have an answer is to say that the language is alive...it is evolving. Part of the problem is that the rules are different in different parts of the world and in different eras. I really don't want to research this one for you, but the reasons often have to do with ease of speech. We get used to saying something one way and it becomes something of a collocation.
     
  2. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Thread Starter Well-Known Member

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    No, don't worry. It is a nasty question. I know someone who teaches at Oxford University (English Department), and I am going to write her tomorrow. I try not to bother her unless something has really gotten under my skin.

    I'll let everyone know what she says.
     
  3. Joko

    Joko Active Member

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    To the OP... What a question.

    The modal verb "want" is followed by the infinitive of purpose 90% of the time.

    You could occasionally use a defining noun phrase to replace a noun, but you'd use what not that .

    I want bananas.

    I want what I can't have.
     
  4. Joko

    Joko Active Member

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    For the OP...

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Mr. Chips

    Mr. Chips Active Member

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    I understand that there two two goal lines involved in these discussions. I previously mentioned about keeping it simple for Thai students until they start to take off.

    The other side of the coin (and apparent primary side) for these threads, is to further develop our knowledge and understanding on such topics.
    I might be off thread here (as I usually am...sorry if so) but I thought it interesting to read the following attachment/study.
    I guess what I am trying to get across is that it is perfectly o.k. to keep it simple.
    Thanks...and I'll leave that point alone.....for now..ha ha.

    IMG_20161019_122443.jpg
     
  6. Mr. Chips

    Mr. Chips Active Member

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  7. Mr. Chips

    Mr. Chips Active Member

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    On my Android the attachment looks spliced. If so then as Gilda Radna would say....
    "Nevermind".
     
  8. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Thread Starter Well-Known Member

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    Hi Joko. Want is not a modal verb. I think you mean restrictive relative clause to modify a noun...
    It is all good. I have the answer to the question--please see below. By the way, thanks for posting the front cover of that book. I am going to buy it.
     
  9. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Thread Starter Well-Known Member

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    Answer: They are all wrong.

    Why: Only certain verbs can take a noun clause that begins with that. These verbs are often called verbs of thinking (hope, feel, understand, etc.) or verbs of saying (agree, answer, explain, etc.). Confusion may arise because want seems close to feel, hope, etc. I hope that you can tell your friends.
     
  10. SundayJam

    SundayJam Well-Known Member

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    Ahh...so this whole thing was a set up. I get it...I'm on vacation. Hmmm...my original impression was also correct.
     
  11. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Thread Starter Well-Known Member

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    I get it too. No set up. Just a lot of hard work to uncover the right answer. I find that having to solve grammar questions on a regular basis helps me to improve my understanding of the language. Just reading something does not do as much good.
     
  12. stfranalum

    stfranalum Well-Known Member

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    an odd question with "objective clause" ....you mean a relative clause as the object? let me have a stab:

    I immediately want the thing that she knows I will have at a later time.

    or the trickier:

    I want that which everyone knows I will not tolerate.

    seems ok, grammatically. in terms of style, unnecessarily complex.
     
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  13. DavidUSA

    DavidUSA Thread Starter Well-Known Member

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    As you know, the sentence above contains a relative clause which follows an object. It is correct, even though it is confusing.

    But the following sentence does not contain a relative clause: I want that she knows I will have dinner. It contains a noun clause, and the sentence is incorrect for the reason listed above in post #26. Why is it not a relative clause? There is no antecedent.

    That which is interesting. Your example is very clever because that which can either have an antecedent or not. So you see where I am going...

    That which has been forgiven should not be spoken of again. (no antecedent)
    This horrific problem, like that which preceded it, is not going to help anyone sleep well tonight.
    (antecedent-horrific problem)

    That which without an antecedent is just a wordy way to say what.


    I want what everyone thinks I will not tolerate. < ok
    I want what you like. < ok
    I want that you like it. < no good (Even though it might sound ok, it is not.)
    I hope that you like it. < ok
    I want that which is new. < not the preferred form because there is no antecedent
    I want what is new. < ok

    So the point is that you found an example in which a noun clause beginning with that follows want, but there is no antecdent; therefore, what is better than that.

    I want what everyone knows I will not tolerate.


    By the way, I am not a psychologist, but your examples are certainly interesting in that regard too.
     
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